Skip to main content
HFDF LawsuitsInterviewsNewsPetroff v. Vallow, Disney, et al

Leslie on The Kim Monson Show

By August 29, 2022September 12th, 2022No Comments

Leslie Manookian, the founder of the Health Freedom Defense Fund, joins Kim to discuss her work against unjust vaccine mandates. The Health Freedom Defense Fund recently won a legal victory over the Biden administration’s federal travel mask mandate. The Health Freedom Defense Fund’s latest lawsuit challenges Disney’s employee COVID vaccine mandate. Learn more about the case here. Listen to the full interview in the second hour. Leslie’s segment starts at 1:10:05. The transcription of Leslie’s segment is available below.

Taking on Disney’s COVID Vaccination Mandate

Kim: Welcome back to the Kim Monson show. I'm Kim Monson. Be sure and check out our website, that's Sign up for our weekly newsletter there, and you can email me at as well. And thank you to all of you who support us. We're an independent voice. We search for truth and clarity by looking at these issues through the lens of freedom versus force, force versus freedom. If something's a good idea, you shouldn't have to force people to do it. And thrilled to have on the line with me Leslie Manookian, and we met, I guess, virtually. We've not met in person yet but through the whole COVID thing. And she had started Health Freedom Defense Fund, and they've done some amazing work. Leslie Manookian, I am just thrilled to have you on the show again. 

Leslie: Good morning, Kim. Thanks for having me.

Kim: First of all, Health Freedom Defense Fund filed suit against the mask mandates on airplanes. And you won that lawsuit. So, where's the status on that right now? 

Leslie: Well, the department of justice is appealing it. What's really interesting is that the government didn't seek any kind of expedited process for reviewing our win. For looking at what the judge ruled, nothing like that didn't even assert that there was an emergency. I mean, if there were an emergency, you would've thought that they would have been pushing as fast as they could in order to review that, and they didn't. They didn't actually seek any kind of expeditious review. And so DOJ is appealing, but it took them quite a while to appeal, and it's a very interesting situation, given that if you think that you're in the middle of a major health problem, or a health crisis, then CDC would be acting as though there were an emergency and that's not been the case. They didn't even say they were going to appeal right away. So that's very curious, but we filed what's called an answer brief to their initial filing on August 1st, and we're just waiting to hear back when we're going to have oral arguments. So we submitted, I think, an incredibly well-reasoned and well-documented brief in reply to DOJ's appeal, and now we have to wait and see what happens. 

Kim: So for the layperson like me, you're saying that the Department of Justice is appealing the decision regarding forced mask wearing on airplanes, which would mean that they think that we should still be forced to wear masks on airplanes. Am I connecting that dot correctly?

Leslie: Well, you are connecting the dot correctly, but I think that you're also exposing what the real issue is, which is one of politics and power. So it's not that there's an emergency. That's not the issue. I mean, CDC, you know, has said that injected and uninjected people shouldn't be treated any differently. That whether, you know, they've basically relaxed everything. And yet they're still in court trying to defend their power to mask the entire populace. Now, why are they doing that? They're doing that because it's not about an emergency it's about political power. And so what most Americans probably don't realize is that we kind of have a fourth branch of government, and that's what is called the administrative state. The administrative state is all these federal agencies that actually sit underneath the executive. And what the problem is, it's not supposed to be a branch of government, right? By the constitution, we have three branches of government, the presidency, which is the executive, the judicial system, which is all the courts; and the legislative, which is Congress. But what's happened over the recent decades, maybe the last a hundred years or so, 75 years, is that the administrative branch, all these federal agencies, have just exploded in not only scope but power. And so what's happening is that for the first time ever in the history of our country, the CDC has claimed power that no one ever envisioned or granted it, that certainly Congress didn't envision or grant it, and so what's happening is that these people are unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats, but it makes it much easier for the President to act as more of a king or emperor, or queen or empress by just dictating what these federal agencies should do and then they dutifully comply and they tell all of Americans what to do. And so what they're doing is trying to defend that power. It's really the executive power that they're trying to defend, which they implement through this administrative state, and we've had what many observers call administrative creep for decades, which is that the power is creeping, right? It starts out very, very small, and now it's crept to the point where they're claiming the power and authority to tell every person that gets on an airplane or on a bus or anything like that, that got CARES Act act funds that they have to mask. But if you drive across state borders, you know, from New Jersey into New York, they don't have any power there. So it's just nonsense. It doesn't make any sense. It's not scientific, it's purely about their power, and that's why they are fighting. 

Kim: Aha. 

Leslie: It's crazy. Isn't it? 

Kim: Well, it is, but the positive thing is that the mask has come off. Literally, the mask has come off on what they're doing. Let's move over here-

Leslie: And can I just say one other thing Kim on this? 

Kim: Sure. 

Leslie: It's also, you know, listen, the public has voted clearly. The public has moved on. Most Americans say that they're over COVID, they're over masks and all these measures. And even if they win, I think it will be very, very difficult for them to reimplement something. But we think we have a very, very good case, and we've had 22 Attorneys General, so states Attorneys General come in on our behalf. We've had, and I can't remember if it's somewhere between 13 and 15 members of Congress, they've all come in on our behalf by submitting what are called Amicus briefs, a friend of the court brief. Basically, explaining why this is government overreach, why it's not constitutional, and why the Appellate Court should uphold the lower US District Court's ruling. So you know, that's very, very positive. It's never a bad thing when you have 22 Attorneys General from the states coming in on your side, right? 

Kim: Definitely, and that's why these elections are so important. My friends is that we need to continue to elect conservatives, people that believe in our constitution, and we need to elect even more Attorneys General like that. So let's talk about your latest suit; and it says Health Freedom Defense Fund is helping a Disney worker sue for mandate discrimination. Tell us about that, Leslie. 

Leslie: Yes. So this Disney worker, she works for- 20th century Fox was sold to Disney, and so this is 20th TV animation, and this is the group that are responsible, it's Seth McFarland's animation groups, and they are responsible for doing all the work for, I think it's called American Dad and Family Guy. I don't watch these shows, so I always forget what the names are, but apparently, they're very popular shows. And they, in April of this year, mandated that employees get the shot. Now that's a really critical time because we already knew by August of last year, CDC actually revealed that the shots don't prevent transmission or infection. Well, if they don't prevent transmission or infection, what in the world is the public health purpose? There isn't one, right? 

Kim: Right. 

Leslie: Even though I still think, no matter what, even if there's a public health purpose, I think that the primacy of the individual is unassailable, unquestionable, and must always exist even in the middle of a huge threat. You can't force me to risk my life for a theoretical risk. That's my view. But the point is, we already knew that these shots didn't confer immunity, didn't stop transmission or infection, and therefore what in the world was Disney thinking by 20th TV Animation actually implementing this policy in April of 2022 when we knew in August of 2021, that they didn't do what they were purported to do, these shots, right? So that makes no sense. And then, on top of that, the Supreme Court of the United States had actually invalidated the government mandate for large employers, saying that the workplace risk was not something that government or employers have power over and that you can't get unvaccinated after work. So they struck that OSHA mandate down. And then on top of that, the equal employment opportunity commission, which is a federal agency, said that companies must, must, must, must, must acknowledge religious objections to vaccination policies and that employers can't judge the sincerity of these religious beliefs or limit religious objections to organized religions. And so Disney went forward, they've not required boosters for anybody, and we know very clearly from the science that the shots do not actually that they wane over time, that they're inferior to natural immunity. And so what in the world is the justification for now, at the 11th hour, forcing 20th TV animation employees, even receptionists who work remotely, which is what Pamela Petroff does, the plaintiff in the case, to get the first couple jabs. They're not being boosted. They're not anything. I mean, this is just, it's optics, that's all it is, and so we filed suit because they are violating not only what the Supreme Court has ruled, what the EEOC has guided, but also California privacy laws, California Fair Employment and Housing Act laws and things. I mean, she's being discriminated against and harassed, and she was not given other work opportunities, and she is being terminated on September 6th. So it's crazy, I mean, I can't even believe this, and I mean, let's get into what the supervisor has done because the harassment and the hostile work environment that they have created is really something to behold.

Kim: Let's do that. Let's go to break. I'm talking with Leslie Manookian, and she is the Founder of Health Freedom Defense Fund. We're talking about this Disney employee that is going to lose her job because she does not wanna get the jab. And we'll talk about this kind of this workplace harassment that has been going on before we do that though I'm so excited to talk about Grand Lake US Constitution week. It will be September 12th through the 18th in Grand Lake, Colorado, which is really a little spot of heaven. It is just gorgeous. And I will have the great honor to MC the main event on September 17th, but go to their website. It's And you can see all of the events, all the different speakers that they have. In fact, Helen Raleigh, who was on the show last week. She's immigrated from China and writes for The Federalist, Wall Street Journal. She's gonna be one of the speakers. It's going to be just great. So go to for more information will be right back with Leslie Manookian.


And welcome back to the Kim Monson Show. I'm Kim Monson. Be sure and check out our website. That's Sign up for our weekly newsletter. There you can email me at as well. And thank you to all of you who support us. We're an independent voice. We search for truth and clarity by looking at these issues through the lens of freedom versus force, force versus freedom. If something's a good idea, you shouldn't have to force people to do it. And before we get back to Leslie Manookian and she's going to stay on through our call in time, and last time she was on, you all had great questions that number's 303-477-5600 thats 303-477-5600. But again, I'm gonna just mention US Constitution week, which is coming up in Grand Lake, Colorado September 12th through September 18th. And the main event is on September 17th, which is Constitution Day. And I have the great honor to MC that, but go to, that's for more information, and you can see all the events and speakers that they have planned throughout the week. So I highly recommend that. Leslie Manookian, first of all, I'm so excited you're going to stay on through the call-in periods because people can give you a call-in and ask you questions. But I have read what has happened to Ms. Petroff regarding the harassment at work. This is just unbelievable. So tell us about that. 

Leslie: Oh, it's it is just... I can't believe the hatred and the vitriol. It's really interesting because this person, her boss, holds herself up as being somebody who is fighting, you know, righteously, to prevent discrimination and support those who are underprivileged, and yet she is harassing her employee in really very despicable ways. But basically, let me just say that it's not just the federal government but also California law prevents prohibits violations of privacy. So Disney shouldn't even be asking about their private medical information and never has before. They've done, they have violated that. They're not allowed to deny a religious exemption. They're not allowed to. They're not allowed to judge the sincerity of your religious beliefs. And yet this is what they're doing. Disney forced Pamela Petroff to go and be interviewed by an HR person. And then, after that, she actually went to her supervisor, which is a woman named Kara Vallow. And what's interesting is that the very day that she received her termination, after actually speaking with Kara Vallow at some point, who's her supervisor, Kara Vallow, posted on Instagram, just sitting here, having my coffee, trying to figure out how mandating evangelical Protestantism as the one true American way fits in with personal freedom. Who is trying to mandate that, but why? I mean, she literally posted that the very day that Pamela Petroff received her termination notice, and then she went on and she would post, and it wasn't. This wasn't isolated; there are dozens and dozens of examples of her doing stuff. If you haven't done it yet, one more time, there's no longer a place for any Republicans or Repub sympathizers in a halfway competent or decent society. Republicans are fascist filth who will take away your rights at will. They're coming after your lesbian sister. They're coming after your disabled daughter. They're coming after your immigrant friends. They're coming after your gay marriage and your mixed-race marriage. Do not break bread with these mother effer's. She wrote the whole word. No Thanksgiving invites, no visits with the grandkids. Cut them out of your lives. Don't be complicit. Don't ever romanticize familial ties. She even said, oh my effing God, get the effing vaccine already. You effing Fs. I mean, she went on, she says that basically unfriend them. Don't talk to them, don't hire them. The woods is where they live. And, but what's worse is that what happened was at the workplace. She created an environment where she told Ms. Petroff that she was no longer allowed to display the American flag on flyers. So Ms. Petro would send around flyers to kind of motivate the staff, and she'd put a flag on them or something like that. She was told she was no longer allowed to do that because it might offend people. The American flag might offend people. That's what she was told. So she's, in the public forum, she's putting out these things, and in the workplace, she's being told not to speak with other staff, not to speak with other supervisors, because basically after she, she was told by HR that they would not accommodate her religious and medical exemption. She then went to her supervisor Kara Vallow, and after that, she was told not to speak to anybody else. 

Kim: Okay. So, Leslie, let me think about this is it Kara Vallow? She is saying all this stuff on her personal social media, and so I'm thinking freedom of speech. I mean, I do believe people should have freedom of speech. And so I think she, I mean, I think it's terrible. I think it's awful, but I think she should have freedom of speech to personally say what she's going to say. Okay, but what you're talking about is actually coming over into the workplace, correct? 

Leslie: Very much so. So what happened was, first of all, if you file a religious exemption, they have to accept it. They cannot judge the sincerity of it. And that's exactly what they did. So they gave her the runaround for months and months, telling her that you're gonna be fired in June, June 13th. And only if you don't get the original COVID shot, well, this is, if this is about help and wellbeing, then why isn't she supposed to get all up to date and get the booster as well? They're not requiring anybody to get a booster shot. So it's clearly not about the shots. It's not about public health, aside from the fact that we already knew that the shots don't do what they're purported to do. So they can't have it both ways. But first of all, they cannot discriminate on the basis of religious beliefs. She submitted a legitimate religious exemption. They can't deny it. They can't accommodate her. The threshold is, are you able to do your job? And her religious exemption does not prevent her from doing her job, which is answering the phone. So they have no leg to stand on, and yet, instead of accommodating that saying, okay, we grant you a religious exemption, and we are going to allow you to come in. She said she would test. She said she would mask. She said she would do anything that was necessary. They denied all of those availabilities, and they basically gave her the runaround. She applied for a different kind of position. They would not allow that. So they basically shut all the doors but also would tell her when she's sending around a flyer, oh, you can't display the American flag anymore. It just became hostile. Basically, as soon as they found out that she was an unvaccinated, conservative Christian, the whole work environment changed. That's what happened, and that's the problem is that they started harassing her. They didn't continue on the way that it had been before, which was very peaceful in a job that she liked. So yes, I'm a hundred percent with you, Kara Vallow, as appalling as it is, as horrendous as it is, she has every right to say what she wants to on social media. But the fact that these comments came out on the days often that there was some kind of communication between her and Ms. Petroff or the day that Petroff was terminated is, I think, a bit telling.

Kim: Well, it is a bit telling, and boy, I tell you what, she sure seems like she's a tolerant person. Huh? 

Leslie: Exactly, and I think this is the thing, the hypocrisy, so, yes. I mean, look she can say whatever she wants. That's her right. But she is a-

Kim: In her personal. She can-

Leslie: In her personal. 

Kim: Yeah.

Leslie: But she's a supervisor, and she shouldn't be telling people that they're not allowed to display the American flag or to put it on a flyer or not supporting her in pursuing a religious exemption. Or invading her privacy or denying her transfer to another, you know, any kind of alternate employment and also terminating her they've terminated her. She will be terminated on September 6th. They wouldn't even let her come into the workplace in order to retrieve her belongings for a while. Why not? Because they're like, oh, you're a threat. So this is not appropriate behavior, and it is not reflective of someone who is what I would call a fair employer or a fair supervisor. 

Kim: So, what's the status? So, where are you at on this whole thing, Leslie? 

Leslie: Well, we filed last Wednesday, and we've sued Kara Vallow in her capacity as a Disney supervisor. We've sued the Disney television company and sued Disney corporate because, of course, this all sits underneath Disney corporate. I don't know if they've been served. I just haven't heard since we filed on Wednesday of last week, so I don't know if they've been served or not. And once they are served, if it hasn't happened yet, then we wait for a response. My guess is Disney will want to, you know, I don't want to speculate, but most of these corporations don't want the negative publicity, and Disney has had a fair amount of negative publicity in the last couple of years.

Kim: Yes they have. 

Leslie: It'll be interesting to see what they do. 

Kim: Very interesting. Okay, before we go to break, Leslie Manookian pre-COVID, and you've worked on Wall Street and very high-powered job. Did you ever dream pre-COVID that you would be doing this? 

Leslie: Well? Yes and no. The reason I say yes is because I was on Wall Street, and while I was on Wall Street, I started to learn about vaccine issues, the whole vaccine debate. And once I started learning about the vaccine debate, I started drilling down on how we got into a place where vaccines were being mandated for children and all the different laws that were being put in place over many, many years. And I was staggered that they had basically been paving the way for a COVID for more than a couple of decades. So I didn't think I would be starting Health Freedom Defense Fund. I'd always wanted to have some kind of a nonprofit, but I didn't, you know, have that vision yet until the spring of 2020. But I did expect for a long time that there was going to be some kind of attack on our rights and freedoms under the pretext of a public health crisis. So, unfortunately, I did see that coming, as sad as it is to say. 

Kim: And how can people help you because of this work that you're doing is amazing. Everybody that's happy that they're not having to wear a mask on an airplane, they should probably contribute to Health Freedom Defense Fund because that is you and your team that did that. So how can people do that? 

Leslie: Well, and let me just say this. Every employer in America needs to respect the rights of being an American citizen, whether someone's jabbed or not, whether they believe, you know, have a religious belief or not, they need to respect individuals. And the reason that we are helping Ms. Petroff is because she was a receptionist who doesn't have the capacity to fight back, but we hope that by suing Disney, we will send a message to every other corporation in America that this is not acceptable. This is unAmerican. It is illegal, immoral, unethical and will not be tolerated. And if you are going to pursue these policies, we will hold you accountable and make you pay. And the only way we can do that is if people support us. So please understand that this case is not just about Ms. Petroff, a receptionist at 20th TV animation. This is about every American. This is about you. It's about your rights and freedoms. And if we can push back against Disney, we can protect every American. So if you go to, you can support Health Freedom Defense Fund in general. If you go specifically to the lawsuit, Ms. Petroff versus Disney, you can support this specific case. There's actually a link to support her specific case. If you wanna do that, but either way, you are supporting Health Freedom Defense Fund, and we're financing this, you know, we're paying for it, we're sponsoring it. We're doing all of our public relations. This is a Health Freedom Defense Fund lawsuit. Our legal team is representing her, and we can't do that if you don't support us. So please, we thank you all for all of the support that you do give, and we ask for more support for this because we can't do this unless we do get people's support.

Oh, my gosh, Leslie, it's- I'm just so excited about what you're doing, so let's go to break, and before we do that, though, another great nonprofit is the US MC Memorial foundation. They are raising money for the Marine Memorial. They're gonna remodel it out at 6th and Colfax. And my friends, we're talking with Leslie, what a warrior for our American rights, our American dream. But we also, it's great to honor and know the stories of those that have given their lives or been willing to give their lives for us, and the us MC Memorial foundation is a great place to do that. Go to And we want to hear from you. It's a great opportunity for you out there to talk to Leslie Manookian, and the number is 303-477-5600. We'll be right back. 


And welcome back to the Kim Monson show. I'm Kim Munson. Be sure and check out our website, that's Sign up for our weekly newsletter. There you can email me at as well. And thank you to all of you who support us. We are an independent voice searching for truth and clarity by looking at these issues through the lens of freedom versus force, force versus freedom. And we want to hear from you at 303-477-5600. I have Leslie Manookian on the line and really recommend that people go to help you at I saw this headline, which took my breath away at Health Freedom Defense Fund, well Alarming Excess Death Among Europe's Youth In 2022, January through August. What about this Leslie Manookian? 

Oh goodness, it's jaw-dropping. I just we are hearing from life insurers and disability insurers all over the world that there have been huge increases in both deaths and disabilities in the UK. You're seeing where they keep better track of this data, a thousand excess deaths every week recently. And the group that seems to be the most hard affected by all of this is the kind of people in the prime of their life. If you look at those 18 to 64, there are some life insurers who've said that there's been a 40% increase in the number of deaths that they're seeing, which is what's called a 12 Sigma event. Something that would randomly happen one in two, every 2 billion years. There are other insurers who've said that there's been a tripling of the payout that they are seeing for deaths in this population, 18 to 64. It's really staggering. The recent research that we're seeing is that we're seeing fertility issues, menstrual irregularities effects on semen and sperm, motility, and numbers from the shots. We're seeing increased heart issues and neurological complications. I mean, it is staggering and terrifying what is happening, and we know that these shots were approved despite there being evidence of some of this in the clinical trial data. There's a 44% miscarriage rate in the clinical trial data that Pfizer released. That Pfizer was forced to release. FDA tried to prevent it from being released, and the court issued an order dictating that it must be re be released to the public. And in there, it was revealed that pregnant women on the trial, 44% of them miscarried. But if you look at a broader trend, they actually didn't report everybody. It was up to 85% of the women failed to have a live birth. 

Kim: This is unbelievable. 

Leslie: It is unbelievable.

Kim: And, we're seeing this, what do they call it? SADS, Sudden Adult Death Syndrome, which this is probably what this is describing, correct?

Leslie: Well, so, you know, we all know we've all probably heard of something called Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. There is ample research connecting childhood vaccinations to Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. And now they have created a new syndrome, which is Sudden Adult Death Syndrome. So SIDS and now SADS, and they're saying that they just don't know what in the world could possibly be causing all these problems with all of these healthy athletes dropping dead on the soccer pitch after a mountain bike race. You know this is what's happening to all of these people. There have been hundreds of doctors in Canada, young, healthy doctors who've died many often after running a marathon or being in the middle of a triathlon and things like this. And so we are seeing this on a global basis in the most heavily vaccinated countries, that there are a range of dangers from the shots that have been undocumented or unacknowledged by CDC and FDA in this country but are starting to be acknowledged in other countries. And it's terrifying, Kim. What is going to happen in the coming months and years is anybody's guess. 

Kim: It is terrifying. We've got Mark in Black Forrest on the line, Mark in Black Forrest, what's on your radar?

Mark: Good morning. I come from the defense industry, and so it's very, my experience was pretty limited, but I do have friends in various defense companies, and they're all telling me their experience coincides with mine. And that is these companies, the HR departments and these companies are all kinda like, Disney's, it seems like it's pervasive. And I was wondering if Leslie kind of has the same experience or more insight into a wide range of industries and their human resource departments.

Kim: Thanks, Mark in Black Forrest to Leslie. What's your comment on that? 

Leslie: A hundred percent. It is not unique. It is not an isolated player here or there. This is pervasive across the country, and it's not just in the corporate world. It's in the medical world as well. We have received just despairing messages from desperate hospital workers saying that they're being forced to wear a yellow star on their name tag in order to mark the fact that they haven't gotten the shot. This is what was happening last year. Now, most of them have been fired. We are hearing from people who work in corporations all across the country. And just so you know, Mark and all of the other listeners know we will be filing several other lawsuits against name brand companies over the next couple of weeks for these exact same infringements of our rights. It seems that they're all singing from the same hem sheet. And so you have got to ask yourself, like, how has this happened? And it seems to me that not only is it happening in the corporate world, but it's happening in the world of schools as well. The schools are implementing these same policies. Why? Well, it seems that they're all being essentially bribed through funds that they received from the CARES Act. And from the, what's the most recent one? I can't think of what it's called. The CARES Act was the federal legislation, you know, bailout last year and then the new one, I can't think of what it's called.

Kim: It's not the Inflation Reduction Act.

Leslie: No, there was another one in between, but basically what they're doing is they're giving billions and billions and billions of dollars to employers, to hospitals, to schools, but there are strings attached, which is that they have to implement these policies.

Kim: Oh my gosh. 

Leslie: It's really a very- listen, we have moved over, we've crossed over the line. We are no longer, in my view, a free society. We have shifted over into an authoritarian type of model and a marriage between the state and the corporations, which is what Mussolini defined as fascism. That's what fascism is. They are working in coordination. We know for a fact that the federal government was telling the social media companies and big tech companies and coordinating with them, telling them to censor people like me and others and doctors and other journalists who were speaking out about what was going on and trying to correct the record and saying that the science was not accurate saying that lockdowns weren't the appropriate way to handle this. There was collusion between the federal government and these giant corporations, that is illegal. That is fascism. We know this for a fact. 

Man: Okay, Leslie Manookian, we're out of time, but thank you so much. And again, what's that website where people can contribute?

Leslie: is where you can go to help us. And I just urge people to stay engaged because that is the only way that we are going to stop this further erosion of our country. Thank you so much for having me, Kim. 

Kim: Oh, Leslie. It's great having you. We're out of time. The quote for the end of the show is from St. Francis of Assisi. He said, Lord, help me to live this day quietly, easily. To lean upon Thy great strength, trustfully, restfully. To wait for the unfolding of Thy will, patiently, serenely. To meet others, peacefully, joyously. To face tomorrow, confidently, courageously.

So, my friends, today be grateful, read great books, think good thoughts, listen to beautiful music, communicate and listen well. Live honestly and authentically, strive for high ideals, and like Superman, stand for truth and justice in the American way. My friends, you are not alone. God bless you. And God bless America.