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‘Conversations on Health Freedom’ with Leslie Manookian – Episode 2 with Dr. Naomi Wolf

By February 8, 2022July 28th, 2022No Comments

Leslie and Naomi discuss how Covid measures being enacted today resemble many of the measures enacted by the Nazi regime, fear-mongering, isolating, segregating, demonizing, blaming, shaming one group in order to dehumanize that group so that society will support the measures.


Leslie: Hi, I’m Leslie Manookian, President of Health Freedom Defense Fund, and I am absolutely thrilled to have my friend Naomi Wolf here with me today to talk about Conversations on Health Freedom. As you know, I think this is one of the most important topics we have to consider in this day and age. I am so grateful that Naomi has taken the time to sit down with us and talk about some of these issues because she is such a leader in thought around issues related to freedom, women’s issues, and more. And so I am just so excited to have you here, Naomi. Thank you so much for joining me. 

Naomi: Well, thank you, Leslie, and if I can kind of reciprocate with the mutual admiration society theme, you’re one of my real heroes. I was saying yesterday on a podcast that we’re in a time of such great evil, kind of manifesting all over the globe, and there are sort of two dozen angels, you know, two dozen human beings who are kind of holding the worst of it at bay and I count you as one of them. I’ve been so impressed with what you’ve done and how you’ve used the law to defend our liberties. So thank you, it’s an honor to be here. 

Leslie: Oh, thanks so much. It’s so sweet of you. Well, the last week has been a really interesting week. We’ve seen Germany or let’s start with Austria. Austria announced that it’s going to not only mandate the shots from the beginning of the year, or maybe February it will be implemented, but actually fine people who don’t get this medical intervention, this unwanted medical intervention, $2,000 for every single incident when they’re found outside their houses without having gotten it, which could mean, you get busted five times in a day it’s $10,000. And if you don’t pay the fine, then you get imprisoned for up to a year. And we see these similar kinds of things where they’re quarantining healthy people against their will in Australia. Germany’s talking about mandating the shots from, I think, February. It’s really going on all over the world. In the United States, your organization, The Daily Clout, actually broke the news that this bill that had been introduced in January of 2021 in New York would require or permit the Governor and his delegees to detain and even forcibly medicate people who are just suspected of being sick. So it’s really timely that we’re having this conversation. And what I really want to ask you is, we’ve got all this going on in the background; what got you into this? Because you weren’t so- health freedom isn’t really where you came to this movement, right? You’ve come to this in the last few years, and I’m really curious, what was the impetus behind getting you here?

Naomi: Yeah, well, really, I don’t see myself specifically as a health freedom activist. I’m a freedom activist, and it just happens that- maybe that’s on me. Maybe I should have woken up earlier, sooner, but we’re in a time since the pandemic, now endemic. According to the data that I see, we’re in a time when it so happens that instead of using the threat of terrorism and the sort of gist or branding of the global war on terrorism as a pretext for stripping us of our liberties—taking a real thing and hyping it and kind of blowing it out of proportion and using that to scare everyone into giving up their freedoms. That didn’t work incredibly well. They really tried; since 9/11, right up until March 2020, they tried and tried and tried and still, we kind of hung onto the taters of our Constitution. So I do see that this is a coordinated rollout, kind of diabolically brilliant, you know, using public health language and public health entities, specifically boards of health as cats paws, to create a kind of global what-shift? Shift the last 70 years of increasing rule of law, human rights, equality, inclusiveness, democracy, transparency, and accountability. Like such as humanities never had before to, to kind of take the rug out from under all of that and shift us back into a kind of global futile state, much more like China than like the modern west, in which a handful of people have all the power and the rest of us live in fear, don’t have rights over our own bodies, don’t have a say over what happens to our children can’t count on holding onto our businesses or our jobs. I mean, absolute war against humanity; let’s not mince words. I mean, that’s what this is. And it’s kind of, it came into sight kind of slowly and was so massive, and it’s evil and comprehensiveness. I think it took a while for a lot of people to be willing to face what’s there, but I’m a student of history, and if you don’t face this quickly, you have no chance to survive it at all. 

Leslie: Yeah, I think it’s really interesting that if we look at the last four or five years, there’s been. This huge movement. I think about people like Dave Rubin, who’ve been speaking out about freedom of speech. You know, he has an entire show committed to freedom of speech. And I think about all the different academics who’ve been canceled and politicians who’ve been canceled. You know, Brett Weinstein from Evergreen State College and many others. And so many people who’ve been taken down from Twitter. I mean like yourself, and myself.

Naomi: Badge of honor at this point. 

Leslie: And what’s really interesting to me is how so many people have been pushing back on the censorship and the cancel culture, silencing of these voices of reason, right? But that’s now gone into hyperdrive in the last couple of years as this last chapter has unfolded. And what’s really interesting to me is that so many of those people who are still focused on freedom of speech are not talking yet in earnest about the issue of bodily autonomy. And so I just wonder you are a student of history. How do you, if you can rank them, what do you think is more important, freedom of speech or bodily autonomy, health freedom, or are they just inseparable? I mean, I don’t know how you think about it. 

Naomi: Yeah, that’s a great question, Leslie. I wish I’d been asked that before. I haven’t been, so, you know, congratulations. These two things shouldn’t be separated at all. I mean, to me as a woman and as a feminist and as a Jew, right? The fact that people don’t see the connection between the right to speak and the right to have a say over what is put inside of you or what your body is forced to do? The fact that the idea that feminists don’t see the gender politics of my body, my choice, and free speech activists don’t see that if you don’t have bodily autonomy, you don’t have freedom of speech, right? You don’t have any freedom at all. They’re part of each other. The fact that they’re not seen as absolutely contiguous is incredible to me and other freedoms. I’m not making this up; we have the Geneva Conventions, we have the Nuremberg code, and we have the Constitution of the United States. The Constitution lists freedom of speech, but you know, there’s the first amendment, and there’s the fourth amendment. The right to be secure in your possessions, the right to keep the door shut to people who you want to get into your private home without a warrant. You know, how much more intrusive is it to get into your private body without a warrant, right? Coercively. So our founders knew perfectly well that these rights could not be separated or even made hierarchical. I don’t think the first amendment is more first than the fourth amendment. They’re all equally critical to our Constitution. And these things that we’re seeing across Europe and across the United States and this bill A416, which will- it’s worse than you even described, Leslie. It will, if it passes on January 5th here in New York state, allow the Governor at her own say so to detain anyone exposed to a contagious disease. They don’t even have to be sick, right? Just, oops, you’ve been exposed. Without a charge or trial, you can’t get out without a court order. These are all illegal, and they’re just pretending that they’re not totally illegal. And thank God there are still judges in this country who are, saying very clearly in their decisions Congress makes laws in the United States, the Board of Health doesn’t make the laws. You can’t just mandate shit- pardon me for my language, but you know, that’s what we’re talking about. If you’re not a queen, you’re not a king; you can’t say because I want it. Whether you, Bill de Blasio, or Anthony Fauci, Congress makes the laws. And we are here in New York state living under a state of emergency, which I warned people about in The End of America. It’s very, very dangerous, 27 states are still under a state of emergency, and all kinds of terrible things can happen when a governor declares the state of emergency and the assembly or the let state legislature allows that to be the case without challenge because they can roll nonsense out and normal checks and balances are suspended.

So I guess what I’m trying to say is, and maybe I’m just telling myself a fairytale because we’re very, we’re not just far down the road of tyranny. Tyranny is surrounding us, and we’re drowning, right? Like that’s where we are. And they’re drowned in Europe. Like what you just described is, people, being waged war upon, people’s bodies being held hostage, essentially, people’s livelihoods being held hostage. Someone texted me yesterday on Facebook or posted that in Israel, they’re told don’t even bring your unvaccinated child to school, right? In Canada, grocery stores are being given the choice to not let the unvaccinated shop for food, right. And this is as you see being rolled out at lightning speed and absolutely lockstep globally, same talking points; it’s surreal. It’s almost impressive how they got so many people in such key positions around the world to do the exact same thing. Use the same talking points, same strategies, same mechanisms, like normal, even normal tyranny doesn’t work that way, right? Like even Hitler really had to fight very hard, and he ultimately lost in trying to roll this out all over Europe and North Africa, and so on. So that’s really happening, and I guess the reason I bring up the rule of law is that I think we’re in a kind of period of mass hysteria and shock and also in which a cult has been actively cultivated to enslave people and really brainwash a lot of people around the world so they can’t think critically and take action to defend themselves. I guess the reason I’m painting that whole picture is that I want to believe, and I have to believe that there will come a day pretty soon when the rule of law kicks in again, and at that point, all these people who committed all these crimes, terrible things are gonna happen to them, you know, by law.

Leslie: So I’m so glad you brought up your book because, well, first of all, I wanna say a couple of other things. One is, you know, I live in Idaho, and our Governor, he’s supposedly a conservative, supposedly cares about individual rights and freedoms. And yet last summer, when there was a special session of the legislature, they passed in both the house and the Senate a bill that would actually curtail his powers in the event of an emergency. He would get, I believe, 60 days under which he could declare it, and then it had to be renewed by the legislature, and you know what happened? He vetoed it, and after he vetoed it, it went back to the house and was passed by a super majority. And then it went to the Idaho Senate to be passed, and he flipped five rhinos in order to get them to block it. So he flipped them; basically, who knows what happened, but behind the scenes, he got them to flip their votes, and they stopped it. If this isn’t antithetical to any kind of democratic government, you know, our Republican form of constitutional Republic. I don’t know what it is; he literally wanted to be able to retain his powers to keep the state of Idaho in a perpetual state of emergency. And he went so far as to veto and then flipped these senators so that he could block it. It is diabolical. I mean, it is outrageous, and there’s no way that you could possibly argue that the state is still in an emergency. I think it’s really important that all of our viewers remember that a case is not an illness. There’s a difference, right? And they’re using they’re conflating cases and actual sick people regularly in the media and at the government level. But that’s one thing I wanted to share. And then the other thing is, I’m so glad you brought up your book because if I understand it correctly, you wrote this amazing book called The End Of America, and it was really in response, if I understand it properly, to the growing authoritarianism, these policies that were being enacted by George W. Bush during his administration and you saw that there were some very, very worrying developments and so you wrote that in response and, outlined how similar what was going on in our country in the aftermath of 9/11, and so many of these policies, how those were similar and echoed by many other authoritarian regimes that had existed over the last century plus. So I’m just wondering, where are we in your kind of 10 steps? Where are we now? 

Naomi: All right. I mean, I’m just going to say it because there’s no point in not saying it. A coup has taken place. It’s just a different kind of coup than Americans have ever seen before. It’s the kind of coup that the Americas trains our intelligence agencies and our special forces and our unacknowledged sort of influencers overseas to do to other countries. In other words, we send people to other countries to create massive propaganda campaigns that the recipients are unaware of. To buy off their imams or their community leaders or their university professors or their journalists and editors and publishers to buy off their sports stars to change their culture, you know, to weaken their military, to subvert them from within, to siphon off wealth, like we know how to weaken other countries. And then we install a puppet, you know, regime, or we tamper with a vote or do all the million dirty tricks that we’ve always done to get our guys and girls more rarely as figureheads and be friendly to us, right? So, well, now that’s happened to us, and it’s happened. Like people keep saying, and they’ve been saying, since I wrote The End Of America, tell us when it’s step 10. And I’ve been saying since August of 2020, August of 2020, I did a video in which I said, they’re never going to let us out, like stop waiting for this to be over because it’s not going to be over. They’re not letting us out. It’s a whole different thing. It’s a coup. And the coup, I believe, I’ve reason to believe thoughtful people in the world of diplomacy and intelligence and statesmanship that I respect think that our President and White House are basically, you know, controlled or owing allegiance to some other entity that’s not the United States of America.

Literally, I was trained as a political consultant to look at events backwards, meaning, let me explain this it is really important. I was a political consultant to the Clinton reelection campaign and Vice President Gore, separately, and what you learn sitting in those rooms where power lives is that first, the goal is identified, right? And then, the message shop is given the task of coming up with a story to get people to accept that goal. And usually, it has absolutely nothing to do with that goal, right? Like, oh, okay, we need to invade Afghanistan because you know, whatever pipeline or, national security, whatever. Okay, girls can’t go to school in Afghanistan. Like what will the US public accept, right? Or, if we need to invade Iraq, what will the US public accept? We have to tie that to the attack on the World Trade Center. I could go on and on, but you saw this constantly. So the way I read historical events, certainly in the United States, is by looking backward. And if you look backward at the last two years, every single policy that doesn’t make sense on its face if the goal is fighting a pandemic makes sense if the goal is to weaken and destroy the United States of America, right? Like if you mandate a vaccine that healthy young people don’t wanna get, you know, still in trials, tons of scary side effects, and you lose a bunch of Navy Seals, or you lose a bunch of special operators or Navy guys, or, army guys and girls, you’re gonna weaken the US military. You know, if nurses and doctors are leaving hospitals because they don’t wanna get this injection, you’re gonna weaken that infrastructure. I see insane policies like masking American children. Abusing them, putting kindergartners outside in the cold, making them sit on buckets, not letting them talk to each other or communicate with each other. I went to a school board meeting here in New York state where mothers were telling me they did away with the lockers, and so 11-year-olds are carrying around 70-pound backpacks, and an 11-year-old has a slipped disc. Like they’re torturing children, right? They’re undoing all the social promises, in institution, after institution. So, what are you doing there? You’re not protecting children from COVID. You’re traumatizing them, and you’re abusing them. You’re breaking them the spirit of independence and critical inquiry that distinguished us as Americans and as Westerners generally across Western Europe and North America. You’re creating a generation of zombies who are depressed and will have to self-medicate and can barely speak to each other or read human expression, right? I could go on and on. You lock people in their homes for a year and a half. You kill a hundred thousand restaurants. You kill the small businesses. You kill that asset class. Religion, I mean, I’m actually writing a book about this, so it’s all coming out all at once, but you know, churches and synagogues, religious organizations were not allowed to convene. A lawsuit went to the Supreme court to allow people to gather up the road at the Catholic church, and this is relevant to what you’re asking. I was shocked to find out you could gather, but the vaccinated were allowed to sit together, and the unvaccinated had to sit separately, mask, and socially distanced from one another. So 2000 years of Christianity that said everyone’s welcome, everyone’s equal is like undone, right? And the same thing with Judaism, same thing with all of these institutions. So if you look at the big picture and you look backward, you know, these policies don’t make any sense. The vaccine mandates don’t make sense because COVID isn’t- vaccinated are no more or less infectious than unvaccinated, right? But it makes sense if what you want to do is crush Western society, crush America, demoralize America, subvert America create- turn us into slaves for, you know, some global superpower.

So that’s what happened. And the last thing I want to tell you about, and it’s not like, oh my God, it might happen, there might be a precipice we’re about to jump off of. We’re living in the middle of it, and we better wake the- wake up. I’ll stop using the F word on your podcast, but we better wake up. We’re in it, right? We’re here; it’s happening. Like you live in a state where the state of emergency has been extended. I live in a state where they’re deploying the national guard to hospitals. I just read that Biden said that he’s going to deploy the military to help with the vaccine effort, right? Well, this is what they did in Australia. And this is what’s called- this is what a coup looks like. The military is deployed in civil society. You can say, oh, it’s to help the vaccine effort. The bottom line for anyone who studies tyranny is that the military is being deployed in a peaceful, free civil society, and that’s the end of it. Like this is the end of the road. It doesn’t, it’s over like, we’re, we’re not- I’m saying the same thing over and over because it’s the first time I’ve really said it in so much detail cause I trust you, and you’re smart, and I know you’ll understand what the impact is of what I’m telling you. But there’s been a coup in the United States of America, and we’re living under that regime. 

Leslie: Yeah, I wish I could say I disagree with you, Naomi, but I’ve been saying it for a long time. I a hundred percent agree. I think, unfortunately, it’s not just a US coup, but it’s a global coup that is literally intent on destroying Western civilization and all the principles that we hold dear with respect to freedom and democracy, and individuality, right? You know, Western civilization was built on the principle, the fundamental principle, that the individual is the most important unit of society and that you can’t do anything to benefit society that hurts the individual, right? You don’t do good by hurting some, right. And that really brings me around. Actually, I’m going to put that question off, and it’s about utilitarianism; I’m going to ask you that next. But you mentioned that you’re Jewish, and I think this is something that we really have to talk about openly. In one of our lawsuits against mask mandates, we talk about the international legal norm called jus cogens, and it is- that’s Latin, and it means that it’s a legal norm that’s been- it’s been agreed upon based on a variety of things, many things, many of those are international treaties, such as the Nuremberg Code, the Helsinki Declaration, the UNESCO declaration on human rights and bioethics. All of these things the US code of federal regulations recognize these things that it’s never, ever ethical to force medication on anybody. So you can’t forcibly put any kind of treatment onto someone. There has to be prior voluntary, informed consent, which means that the person understands the risks and the benefits and can voluntarily make a choice. And what’s been happening in the last couple of years is that those of us who are really paying attention have seen that there’re unbelievable similarities to these previously, extent. Tyrannical regimes just like the Nazis. And so our lawsuit talked about all of these different legal norms that have been agreed upon for nearly, I guess it’s been 75- 80 years now, and how, one of the things that the world learned in particular, the Western world, after the atrocities committed by the Nazis was that we don’t experiment on people, right? That this is totally unacceptable. And yet masks are not FDA approved. The tests are not FDA approved. And even the shots that are being pushed are not FDA approved. And if someone then draws a comparison between what the Nazis did and their playbook, they get ridiculed. In my own local community, where we’re suing over a mask mandate, seven Jewish members of our community wrote a letter to our newspaper accusing us of hijacking the Holocaust. 

Naomi: Well, let me- 

Leslie: And let me say, and on Facebook, some people actually accuse me of being an anti-Semite, which I think is absolutely hilarious from about as far as you can get from being an anti-Semite, and I’m Armenian! The first genocide of the 20th century happened to the Armenians. But what I want to ask you is how do we talk about these similarities without then being castigated as anti-Semites and hijacking the Holocaust?

Naomi: Yeah. 

Leslie: How do we convey this, Naomi? 

Naomi: Yeah, I need to address this. It’s very, very, very important. So basically, there’s a playbook, these are talking points, and there’s a huge flow of money going to “community groups” and “influencers” to adopt these talking points, not just these but others, like the anti-vax talking points and so on. I’m Jewish, and I’ve been accused twice of being antisemitic for raising the obvious parallels between this medical experimentation and what happened in Nazi Germany. I know that when a Fox news anchor also addressed this, the Auschwitz museum jumped on her, quite ahistorically, I’m sorry to say.

So I guess what I’m trying to say is don’t pay attention to that, right? I mean, obviously, one tries to be sensitive in addressing the Armenian Holocaust or the Holocaust of the Jews under Nazi Germany, but you have to keep talking about it. You will get attacked cuz that’s their methodology to shut us up. Same thing with Jim Crow. Like I’ve been talking about the parallel with Jim Crow laws and I’m being attacked, I’m a white woman I’m being attacked and attacked not by people of color, they perfectly well see the similarities, but you know, but other, these paid influencers, so that’s intentional to keep us from having the obvious conversations. But the other thing I would say is people are very ignorant about history, and right behind me, I keep it on my desk. I have Racial Hygiene, one book, and The Nazi Doctors, another book, these two classics about exactly how medical experimentation was used as an advanced force by the national socialist. And I guess I just think it’s very important for you to keep reminding people and, you know, of course, use clauses, like with all due respect to the suffering of the Jewish people that never hurts or same with the Armenian people and it’s important to say it’s not, no historical echoes or ever identical, however, anyone who studies history, especially these two books knows perfectly well that Mengle was not the start of this medical experimentation on people, that the Nazis did exactly what’s happening now, which has co-opted the medical societies. Co-opted the professional societies and rewarded people with great career choices if they got in line. Not just with national socialism, but first with this process of weeding out the unfit, singling out the disabled children who were mentally “defective,” the “useless eaters.” and there, I would say, be very granular because literally the same sound bites are being recycled. I mean, literally, the Biden administration advocates and aligned pharma mouthpiece is saying things like, oh, they don’t deserve medical care. David Frum said that he’s Jewish and he should know better.

 You know, they don’t deserve medical care, their weights on society. That is literally right out of the national socialist playbook, where they would show how much money it was costing the state to have one of these, you know, “defective useless eaters” being treated with medical care, and the- it was literally a fraction of a gesture from there to the sensible step of letting them starve to death, you know of euthanizing them of just transporting them to facilities where they would never be seen again. And that’s one reason I’m so scared of these quarantine camps, right? Because that’s exactly where we were in 1933 and 1934. These kids were just registered.

There was like a register- a list, right. That’s why I’m scared of the list and the database. They were rounded up, and it was all; there were health passes. I mean, it’s all the same. And these kids were taken away, their parents were reassured they were being taken care of, and then the parents never got them back again, and they all like died of other causes. Oh, sorry, you know, they just didn’t- failure to thrive. That was what happened over and over. You probably know all of this, but it is literally the same playbook and then what Racial Hygiene points out is that at the end of the Nazi era, a handful of these doctors were tried in the Nuremberg trials. They were hanged because of their crimes against humanity. But a lot of them survived, and then the whole apparatus of Nazi medicine kind of morphed seamlessly into genetics and handed down the same precepts that we’re seeing now with this giant push to gather our DNA and to harvest our DNA and to experiment or intervene in our RNA, in our DNA, right? With these shots, which is the notion that there’s a better and a worse human being, and these Nazi doctors or their modern-day equivalent are the ones to decide, not us. 

Leslie: It’s really interesting. What you say about not knowing history, in the letter to the editor that they penned, they said that the Nazis were torturing- they were using medicine to torture people and kill people. And I thought, how can you be so ignorant? No, they were doing it because they thought it would help humanity. That was their justification that they were doing it because they thought it was in service to the greater good. They said we’re going to figure out what all these different poisons and treatments and things do to the Jews because it’s going to benefit humanity, the human race that we want to preserve. And I think it’s really fascinating that these people who are Jewish have no clue that that’s what was really going on.

Naomi: Well, I mean, let me just jump in there as a Jew, Jew speaking. I hear you, but I’m going to say you’re, you’re both right. And that’s why we should reread our Nazi history. Right now, people are doing horrific things, thinking that it’s for the best, right? Creating a discrimination society in one foul swoop out of what had been the greatest melting pot in the world is a Nazi thing to do, right. Or it’s an apartheid thing to do, and people believe that they’re helping humanity. I mean, I hear from loved ones and friends who think that they’re helping humanity by enforcing this discrimination. So, and just also as a practical matter, respectfully, you’re both right in that the Nazis did torture people. They would cut off people’s legs and see how long it took them to bleed to death or starve them and weigh them and submerge them under water. And some of those tests are still used in the military in kind of seeing how long someone can stay underwater and live. But I think the point that the critics of you, writing to the newspaper, were trying to make is, these little tiny things are not torture and murder, but torture and murder, I will say began with little tiny things like separating people into fit and unfit. So you’re both right. 

Leslie: Yeah, and I’m not saying that they didn’t torture. I’m just saying that to completely ignore the fact that much of it was about experimentation; let’s see how long it takes them to die after we cut their leg off, right? These are- it’s twisted. I’m not in any way justifying it. It’s heinous. It’s horrent to any feeling, thinking human being. What’s really interesting is that it was, of course, the newspaper that wrote the article completely mischaracterizing our lawsuit, and then they responded to that. They didn’t bother to go and actually do the research. So it’s very interesting.

Naomi: It is interesting. And what I would say is that I was smeared in a similar way. Granddaughter of a woman who lost nine siblings in the Holocaust, I was called an anti-semite or using antisemitic language in invoking the Nazi parallel, and you just have to keep doing it. But I would also say you have lawyers, send a lawyer’s letter. That that should not- that’s a serious charge, and it should not stand. And you know, you are on the right- you are on the right side of history. I think the more important point I’d like to draw from what you’re saying and what your critics are saying is that when a culture gets this sociopathic as to lose all empathy, right? To say to little children in New York, without your vaccine pass, you can’t go to the zoo with your friends. That’s a sociopathic thing to say, let alone, you know, you have to wear a mask all day for you’re a child. You have to lose your job unless you take this experimental intervention. When that happens, experimentation and torture can be the same thing, right? I mean, I think we are torturing people. I think that the whole country and the whole west is in a state of trauma. Because I know what it’s like to have been raped. A lot of people don’t know what it’s like to have been raped. I’ll have PTSD for the rest of my life. A lot of people are just learning what it’s like to have PTSD for the rest of their lives. But I guess what I’m trying to say is I’ve lived for 50 years as a rape survivor and worked on my PTSD for years. Millions of people are literally just going through the shock and trauma of having no control over what goes into their body that will change them forever or, having no ability to protect their children, no ability to take the mask off their asthmatic child’s face. That’s so traumatic to be, so you know, feminized really and so broken and so genderized and so enslaved. And that’s trauma that lasts for the rest of your life. I mean, it’s like trauma in the body. You can measure it in cortisol. People who’ve been traumatized in war or rape survivors have different cortisol levels in their saliva. The body keeps the scores a famous book about trauma. So my point is, you know, this experience of being a rape victim is happening to everyone or a victim of an, a kind of fascistic regime. It’s happening to everyone in real-time. And a lot of people haven’t had years and years to recognize, oh, this is someone stripping me of my autonomy, keeping me from escaping, invading my body, you know, putting scars on me forever, keeping me from protecting my child. You know, I recognize this, right. I mean, I’m a rape survivor, I’m a Jew. I recognize it. Lots of people from communist regimes recognize it. But other people are new to it, and I think they are in the act of being traumatized right now. 

Leslie: I think it’s really interesting too. I think I mentioned this to you when we were together at the brownstone inaugural event. That, to me, we’ve gotten here because there’ve been certain facilitating factors like social media cancel culture in particular, right. Social media puts everybody out there and then allowing cancel culture to thrive, allows people to then just completely erase someone else. And so we’ve gotten to a place where we- people say and do things on social media that just shock me, that they would never ever say in person to each other. And we’ve also then censored and suppressed free speech. And so we’ve gotten to this place now where it’s perfectly acceptable to actually cancel another human being. And I think it’s part and parcel of this whole process, which let’s- as you’ve already mentioned, has been put in place over many more than just the last two years. There’s been so many legislative steps and other things that have been put in place to get us to here, you know, where we are.

But I think it all really comes together. If you look at what’s happening in our society, there’s been this, in my view, wholehearted concerted effort to destroy the nation from the inside out, right? I mean, I tell my son, who’s 19. I would never wear the clothes that 16-year-old girls do today. My father would’ve never let me out of the house in the leggings and the crop tops and the cleavage and all the stuff that’s just considered normal today was considered really loose. Yeah, not that old, but I was born in 1964, but I mean, it’s just crazy how society has morphed to this place where it’s just, so anything goes and where there’s actually, I would say, a decay in the moral fabric of American society. And while I fully embrace free-thinking adults to do whatever they feel is appropriate for them and to make whatever choices they want in their lives. That doesn’t mean that we should just throw away any kind of- you know, moral fabric that we had. Basic understandings of just common decency, and I feel like we’ve just lost that so much. 

Naomi: Yeah. I mean, I’m with you, and I’m just smiling because you and I are from kind of progressive communities, I think where it’s usually those other people saying, oh no, American society has lost its moral fiber. I think that’s part of the same thing that I’m describing. I see- I started noticing this in movies aimed at kids, messages of disrespect to parents, and authority figures. I see a theme of sacred rituals being mocked and be submerged in pop culture. A lot of our pop culture is created by people whose largest market share is in China, and China does want to destroy our families. I mean, that’s communism, right? Destroy the family unit, whatever the family unit looks like, substitute the state, make people unable to make strong moral choices, and weakened the community. All of these things are true, and I’m not a prude, but I’m definitely seeing a war on the things that allowed us to teach our kids right from wrong for sure. However, you define that, right? But the act of moral engagement has been undermined. I’m so sorry. I’ve got time for one more. 

Leslie: Okay. That’s perfect. Because I have one more question for you, and that is Naomi, what do we do now? What do we do from here? I mean, so many Americans, so many Westerners, feel so powerless to change the course that has been chartered by these people, whoever they are, who are pulling the strings. What do you think? Can you give us some idea of solutions that you have in mind, things that you’ve thought about or that you would recommend to our viewers?

Naomi: Well, your organization is an incredibly important part of the solution. I mean, there are literally like five tools left that citizens can use peacefully. One of them is lawsuits, and that’s where your organization is so important and organizations like NCRA and ACRU who are doing similar work. All these lawsuits across the country and across Europe. I think it’s very important that people file criminal complaints. Like I gather, the ICC had a criminal complaint accepted against some of these bad actors. I think another way to fight is what we’re doing at Daily Clout, which is, as you know, we draft model bills, and we ask people to pass them. And so we’ve drafted five bills to ban vaccine passports, ban mask mandates, open schools, end emergency law, restore freedom of assembly, and one variation or another of those have been passed in 33 states, and we network with state legislators. And so at the state level in America, thank God, there’s still a lot you can do to support, to lobby, to put pressure, to meet with your representatives and get these bills passed.

 I think one of the most important things people can do right now is to assemble, just to refuse to be kept apart. I’m not saying don’t make good health decisions for yourself if you’re vulnerable or compromised; that’s your decision. But if you feel healthy enough, if you ventilate, if you take vitamin C and D, if you feel safe enough, assemble. It’s so important, and one reason it’s important is it’s harder to gaslight a community like Omicron, right? If I only stayed indoors and read CNN, I would think that we were in a horrific, viral meltdown. But since I’m out and about all the time, I’m aware that it’s kind of a blessing that it’s a pretty mild version of COVID. Not to minimize it, but it’s very important for human beings to talk to each other. Then when you’re out and about, you also see that there are huge parts of the country where COVID is over, and people are going about business as usual, which is pretty enlightening. I hate to say it, as a lifelong liberal, but the second amendment is very important. The only difference between us and Australia, I think, is that it is the second amendment and that there are guns in this country, and I’m a peaceful person. I am not saying do anything unlawful, but it’s harder to enslave a population that has legal, registered, safely handled weapons in their homes or has the right to weapons.

 What are some of the other things we can do-

Leslie: Can you tell us a little bit more about the Daily Clout. I just want everyone to know how they can find you, how they can follow what you do and how they can support your work because it’s so important. 

Naomi: Sure. I just, I want to say one thing to Europeans who don’t have access to our state system or the second amendment, that non-compliance did bring down the Soviet Union and just make it costly and expensive and laborious to enforce these laws, or these mandates or these bad impositions of tyranny is powerful if you do it at a mass scale. The Daily Clout, okay, come to DailyCloud.io, and you can become a member. We really need your donations. I’m not shy saying that these days cause, it overwhelmingly goes to our lawyers to draft these wonderful model bills. And it’s a powerful way to meet other people who are trying to stem the tide of tyranny and to fight at a legislative, state, and federal level to defend our freedom. And thank you for what you do, Leslie. Thank you and your team for what you do. What a shining light in the darkness you are. 

Leslie: You are so sweet, Naomi, so are you. It is an unbelievable honor and pleasure to be in this fight with you. I like you; I say I was a lifelong liberal because I can no longer- I don’t feel comfortable in that, I guess description anymore. It doesn’t feel comfortable to me, but it is an honor to me to stand side by side with somebody like you and so many other people who are courageously standing up in the face of what can only be described as a huge and looming specter of tyranny.

 So thank you so much for what you do because you are a beacon of light to so many, and your organization is empowering so many people to get involved with the legislative process to affect change. And it’s a great idea, and I’m super excited to stand side by side with you and share this time with you and to support your group. So thank you so much for being with us. 

Naomi: Thank you. 

Leslie: I really, really appreciate it. And you have a beautiful and blessed afternoon. 

Naomi: Thank you. You too, Leslie. Thank you so much.